Over the last 5 years, Kindercore has grown from a tiny Athens label putting out friends' records to one of the most distinctive and reliable purveyors of independent "pop" music today. This year marks the release of KindercoreFifty, a three-CD compilation featuring highlights from the label's first 50 releases, along with rare tracks and remixes. I talked to label co-founder Dan Geller about how to get your band signed to an indie label, what it feels like to be "Big in Japan," and how you, too can make your own boy band!
Dan Geller and Ryan Lewis of Kindercore
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WILL: So do you know who the guitarist for Poison was?
DAN GELLER: No, I don't. Who was it?
W: It was C.C. DeVille.
DG: OK, that makes sense. I've heard that name before. That wasn't part of the interview was it?
W: No.
DG: 'Cause I don't want to look stupid about my hesher [facts].
W: No. We won't expose that you don't have your hair metal straight.
Your web page’s “demo” section says “there is a definite ‘Kindercore Sound.’ How would you describe it?
DG: It’s funny, cause we used to say it was “pop;” we would always answer this questions as “catchy pop” and that was the end of it. And now, in the past year, I think it’s evolved past that, and now it’s more of a vibe, really. I guess the catchiness factor is still there, like obviously a band like Japancakes isn’t a pop band, but there are catchy repetitive elements in it that make you want to listen to it again and again. And I think that is the permeating thing now: something that you hear and you want to hear it again right away. With us, it’s an immediate acceptance. We have put out more challenging records: I think the Frosted Ambassador isn’t as immediate, but you still kind of want to hear it again just cause there’s so many interesting sounds on there that the texture kind of draws you in. So, it’s something that you want to hear again, very soon after you’ve heard it the first time. And that’s how we judge our demos that we get: if we want to listen to it right away again, we probably want to do it.
W: Which seems to me a broader definition of the term “pop” than just “indie pop.”
DG: Right. It’s no longer “indie pop,” I would say. Definitely not.
W: It seems like people often associate Kindercore with willful adolescence or childishness – it’s the “kinder” part of the name, I guess. But when I was listening to Birdie's album I realized it’s some of the most mature and “adult” pop music I’ve heard in a long time, in a way it’s a much more intelligent definition of “Adult Alternative.”
DG: Yeah. We’ve definitely taken a change in our direction, I would say.
W: So are you worried that you’ve alienated any of the original Kindercore constituency?
DG: I don’t think so, cause I really think the original Kindercore fans would love the Birdie album. And I’m sure they do; I mean, we’ve talked to a lot of diehard fans and the Birdie album is one of those albums that they just love. I think albums like Japancakes and the Frosted Ambassador may have freaked them out, but a lot of them have come around and learned to appreciate it. And I think we’re opening their minds as well, because I think you kind of get stuck in the “indie pop” mindset and there’s a lot of other good music out there that you just miss. I mean, we never exclusively listen to that stuff when we put it out – that’s what we were putting out at the time because that’s what our friends were doing, basically. And now our friends have started to do other things and we’ve started to do other things and we’re able to express more of our musical tastes now through the label, which is great. It shouldn’t just be one-sided.
W: Salon.com ran a piece about the Kindercore Expo 2000 in which they accused Kindercore fans of being scared of sex, dancing, and even swimming pools. Were you amused or pissed off by their caricature?
DG: You know, that article was funny because it was a really flattering article – I mean, obviously he had a great time and he loved it - and it’s not our perception of the label but it was his perception of the label. It doesn’t piss us off, but sometimes we wish people saw it the way we intend it to be now. The thing is, when you step back and look at [the label now], if you don’t take our history into account, it certainly isn’t [the way the writer described it], but that’s how it’s going to look because that’s where our roots are, and we’re not ashamed of where our roots are. There is an element of that still in stuff we do, [but] we like to have fun and I definitely don’t think that caricature was very accurate. It’s funny, cause we had a festival two years ago as well, and this one had a lot more decadence going on at it than the other one did. Being behind the scenes you see all this stuff that’s a lot different now than it was back then. Two years ago I probably would have been offended by a lot of the stuff that was going on, and now you expect it.
W: He also made the common accusation that Belle and Sebastian’s music is “sexless,” which I think is really a misperception.
DG: Yeah, that’s so untrue.
W: When they sing “she was into S&M and Bible Studies,” it may be a pretty melody line, but the lyrics are describing a character who is obviously a sexual being.
DG: Yeah, they get a bad rap. It’s funny, because they’re obviously the most successful band in the genre, and they’re completely mature and adult... It’s sometimes unfortunate for them, I think, because there’s probably people who would love them if they could get past the stigma that’s attached to them.
W: Kindercore seems to be getting into a lot more electronic music recently, like with the artists on Sweden’s Electronic Watusi sister label. How did the partership with them come about?
DG: [On a CD put out by]…this magazine from Japan, there was a Babalu track, and we heard it and were like “wow, this is really cool,” and we call up and find out who bands we like are, to keep up with what’s going on, and that one they really didn’t have much information about, so we researched it and we ended up getting the comp, the Watusi comp, which we ended up eventually putting out. It was pressed by them themselves, you know, Electronic Watusi as a label, and we got that through some crazy way – it cost thirty bucks to import, you know, it was ridiculous, and we got it and it was really cool, and we contacted them and said “we really like what you’re doing,” and they were like “we like what we’re doing, too, but we just don’t have any money and we’re getting all these big offers from big labels and we’re afraid of them because we’re an indie and we don’t want to get involved with anything like that.” And we just started talking to them and our ideas were dead-on: it was a group of friends making music the way they wanted to make it, with their rules. And they needed money and we had money so we got together and that was it.
They came over for the festival and it was really strange because there’s one guy named Richard and one guy named Michael that run it - you know, two guys, like me and Ryan. Michael looks exactly like Ryan and Richard looks remarkably like me and our entire life stories are, even though we’re from different parts of the world, very similar. It’s just bizarre. It was fate. There was no question that it was fate.W: So you’ve got these weird Swedish doppelgangers?
DG: Yeah. They sent us a picture and we almost passed out. We could have easily used it as our press photo and no one would have known the difference.
W: Aren’t you worried that there could be some plot to take your place?
DG: [Laughs] No.
W: Or they could run Kindercore and you could run their label for a year and nobody would notice.
DG: What they’re not really into is the business side of things, so it’s a good marriage. They have this extreme creative spark: they have these ideas that just don’t stop coming, every day they write us with a new idea. And I’m from a more stable mindset because I went to school for engineering, so I take care of the business end of things and they all run wild with the ideas. It’s become a really great relationship.
W: How does a small label like Kindercore manage financially? Have there been some really dire times?
DG: Oh, yeah. For years and years it was hand-to-mouth…I have a Masters in Engineering, and I was working as a Biological Engineer and that’s what was funding the label for a long time. And then records started to sell and then we teamed up with Emperor Norton [Records] and that got our distribution wider and it gives us a cushion if we need to fall on something. Like, if we need money immediately for something, we can get it. If we need to give a band a big advance, we can get it. And if we run out of a record all of a sudden and we didn’t get paid yet that month by a distributor, we can get the money to do that. So now we have a safety net, which is nice.
It was tough. But, you know, at first it was just for fun, so it didn’t matter. I mean, I probably lost 10,000 dollars of my money at the beginning of it, but it was just for fun for me; getting the records and putting out the records was a thrill. And now we’ve made it back and it’s all good. It worked out. At first you just don’t get paid and these records sit at your house and nobody really wants them cause nobody knows who you are, but as time went on and people started to know who we are, then we were able to sell those records that we always had sitting around the house. It all worked out, and it was tough but it didn’t matter because we had day jobs. Now this is our day job, so now if it goes bad it does matter!
W: Do have any “band that got away” stories?
DG: Well, there’s always bands that we wonder if we should have done. We really liked the Busy Signals record, that was a really good one, and we maybe could have done that. The thing is, we’re happy with who we have, and as long as the records get put out by someone we respect we don’t care…It’s all about putting out the good music, when it comes right down to it, and…if there’s a challenge for the band, like there’s a bidding war or something, and I know the other label’s a good label I’ll just go “let ‘em have it, because they’re a good label and they’ll do a good job with it, and they’re gonna be fine.” I mean, as long as the music’s out there I don’t really care.
W: Have you ever signed a band based on an unsolicited demo?
DG: Yeah. Actually, Ashley Park, our newest release, is with a demo we just got in the mail. And we, you know, we put it on and we wanted to hear it again right away...We don’t do it too often; there have only been three or four cases of that happening, and it was fun to have it happen again. And it’s always great, when that happens, to have somebody like it. You know, we didn’t have to do it for any particular reason other than we liked it. People are freaking out about that record and we really didn’t know, we just liked it a lot ourselves. And that makes me feel like I’m not out of touch. I liked a record that other people like now…
The story with our bands is that they’re “part of the family,” and you can direct their promotion that way and people will understand what’s going on. But when we take a shot in the dark like that it’s really spinning the wheel to see what happens, you know?
W: What do you think is the best way a band without real money or connections can increase their chances of getting signed to a non-major label?
DG: One time Julian Koster [of the Music Tapes, Chocolate U.S.A., and player on many Elephant 6 releases – Ed.] said to Ben Crum of the Great Lakes - Ben Crum was demoing all these Great Lakes songs – one time he said “Why don’t you stop making demos and start making records. [Don’t] worry about where these demos are going to go to; make yourself a record.” The thing with the Ashley Park record is it was done; we didn’t have to do anything to it. We got it and we just put it out. We didn’t have it re-recorded…
VHS or Beta - they’re a band that’s going to be on a major label or something someday; they’re going to be huge. They don’t have the means to record their record the way it needs to be recorded: like, they probably need two million dollars or something to record the record the way it needs to be done. In their case, they should be doing demos. But if you’re going to make a record that’s going to be in the budget of an indie label anyway, you might as well just start making it. If you have the equipment to make a demo, you have the equipment to make a record.
W: Just make it yourself and then offer it.
DG: Or it could be just one song that you record right. It’s just that when we got [the record] from Ashley Park, it was done, and it was like “this is the way the record is going to sound.” And even if it would have been one really great song we would have known what he was capable of. It’s hard to take a chance at this level...The Essex Green is a good example: we knew them, but they gave us a demo and we were like “these are really good songs, and we think that when they go into the studio it’s going to be great. Let’s sign them.” And it was, it was amazing. So that worked out, but if they would have give us Everything is Green full-production, the way we have it now, there would have been no question, it would have made me feel a lot more confident going into it. That’s part of what you want to know: that it’s gonna sound great when it’s done.
W: It must give you a great feeling, too – being open to that and then your suspicions turning out to be correct.
DG: Yeah. And there are songs that just come through and you know they’re hits. Tuesday Weld is another new artist: he sent us a five-song demo which actually I think we’re going to probably use. Those songs are good enough that I don’t even consider it a demo. There were two hits on there, and it didn’t matter how they were recorded, they were hits. They can go out the way they are, they can go out in a 54-track studio and do it, it’s still going to be a hit. When the songwriting’s solid, it doesn’t matter. If the songs are great, you can just be playing an acoustic guitar and people are going to feel it.
W: The culmination of this years’s Expo was the world premiere of N2 Her and From U 2 S, two Kindercore pre-fab indie rock “boy bands” in the mold of ‘N SYNC and 98 degrees. Where did that idea come from?
DG: Man, I don’t even know. Tracy, Ryan’s girlfriend, came up with the idea and then we just started rolling with it. It was just kind of a joke at first and then we started rolling with it and we got all these ideas [of] how we could do it. Between the Masters of the Hemisphere and two Pitch-A-Tent [records] bands, the Wee Turtles and Je Suis France, between those three bands we have the wackiest people on earth in this town, and they’re our great friends. And we just said “let’s get together and get everyone rounded up and do this,” cause we knew they would do a great job. And DJ Hammond from Je Suis France, whose alterego is “Troy Bulge,” the head of N2 Her, he just brought it all together and made it amazing. He kind of took a leadership role in it and took it to the next level.
W: That was a great idea.
DG: Yeah, it was a huge success, and we get people writing to us all the time about it, cause we covered “Summer Babe” by Pavement and “Make-Out Club” by Unrest, those were the two songs that we picked, and we get people writing us all the time, like “we haveto get those songs!” And I did ‘em on my computer with a bunch of software and made ‘em just crazy, over-the-top, big production. I listened to ‘N SYNC for a week to try to figure out what they did to make it sound like that.
W: What a great excuse to abuse ProTools – you can use all the stupid Plug-Ins and everything and really make something that sounds like something you’d hate.
DG: Yeah, that’s exactly what I did! [Laughs] But, you know, it’s really funny because I can actually listen to it and go “I’m pretty proud of this.” I feel like if I had a boy band...it would work.
W: Everyone should have their own boy band! On a different topic: some great labels in the past, for example Blue Note and 4AD, had a certain uniform “look” to their packaging. Are there elements of that with Kindercore, certain aesthetic rules that you abide by?
DG: You know, there really used to be. Again, I think it goes back to where we were and where we are now…Ryan does a lot of the design and some of it is definitely reflecting his taste: you know, [the aesthetics] of the 60’s and stuff. But Japancakes is a always a great example of breaking the rules for us because they’re one of our favorite bands and they’ve definitely broken all the rules, if there were any. And Down the Elements is our favorite cover that we have and that certainly isn’t reflecting the 60’s at all, it’s just a beautiful picture that reflects the sound of the band.
I guess, when it comes down to it, from the beginning our one rule was “it has to look professional. It has to look like it could be on a major label.” That was our big thing. We didn’t ever want anything that looked like you made it at home. And at the beginning that might not have been the best thing, but we just always wanted it to look pro. We wanted people to take us seriously. And some people didn’t think that was the right way to go, but for us it is. We don’t want to put out anything that isn’t right. We don’t want to mess around, basically.
W: When I was in college I listened to a lot of "lo fi" self-released music, like Daniel Johnston and Smog, people who released and packaged their music themselves, and I assumed that because people were kind to those particular artists that I didn't have to worry about people's reactions to the technical limitations of my own music I recorded on a 4-track. I thought people would hear through that, and what I found out when I started releasing my own stuff is that very few people actually can hear through unprofessional sound quality. They want it to sound professional and look professional. Even your friends sometimes won't believe in your music unless they hear it with reverb and compression and it comes packaged in shrink-wrap.
DG: Yeah, it's true. Those are great examples, and I think the Mountain Goats is a really great example, too. You can get through on just your heart and soul, but it's a lot harder. You really have to do something that totally elevates it. Vermont is the closest to that that we have, where it's really stripped-down. And the new Richard Davies record, too. I think both of those are the closest to that that we do, although the Richard Davies record is super hi fi. I don't want to say it's "lo fi," but it's simple.
W: Yeah, I interviewed him about that record and he said "I wanted to make it really simple," and I was thinking "'Stars' doesn't sound really simple to me." It sounds fantastic.
DG: Oh, yeah, the production's awesome. But the sentiment is straight. Most of our records have a lot going on, and those two records don't, but they're still just amazing. The songwriting is just so good it doesn't matter. We love those albums.
W: What were some of your favorite albums when you were growing up?
DG: When I was growing up I was a huge R.E.M. fan, and that’s obviously how I ended up in Athens, Georgia.
And I guess my two favorite records still today are the Stone Roses’ first record and My Bloody Valentine: Loveless. Those were huge records to me when I was younger too, I guess. I really like British music, I guess, when I think about it; I like the Happy Mondays and the Soup Dragons – even the bad Britpop bands I was into. Blur and the Charlatans were two of my favorites.
And Ryan came from a very different background. He only listened to 60’s stuff, pretty much, and he still does listen to a lot of 60’s stuff now.
W: So its not so much that he revisited it as it is that he never left?
DG: He never left. He really grew up on the Beatles. His dad was a really open-minded guy who liked great music growing up. He has the White Album when it first came out on CD, where the CD was, like, an inch thick. And that’s our White Album in the office: the first one. He bought it before he even had a CD player just because he wanted to have a CD of the Beatles. And it’s funny because that’s obviously shaped a lot of where we went.
For me it was different, because my parents grew up in the 50s and we listened to Elvis and a lot of the crooners and stuff when I was growing up, so that’s what I heard. And I didn’t really latch on to that at all. My brother was a hesher so I listened to Van Halen and stuff from him, and I never really latched on to that. It wasn’t until I found R.E.M. that I really understood what music could be.
W: So that explains why you didn't know who C.C. DeVille was.
DG: Exactly. I bought Theater of Pain, by Mötley Crüe, and then the next week, literally, I heard R.E.M. And then that was it. I thought maybe I was going to be Heavy Metal like everybody else – I’m from Milwaukee, Wisconsion, and you kind of assume you’re gonna be hesh because everybody there is. And I found R.E.M. the next week. And then the Smiths the week after that.
W: And you were saved.
DG: Yeah, and it’s funny, because I think the label almost reflects that, now that I’m saying it: my background and Ryan’s background coming together. [That’s] definitely helped shape the sound of Kindercore.
W: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
DG: And he’s really turned me on to all the 60’s stuff and I love it now. I didn’t hear it until we started doing this. I mean, obviously I’d heard the Beatles, but I hadn’t heard the Beatles. I hadn’t heard all the records, I hadn’t heard all the good songs. And the same thing with him, you know, he doesn’t really give in to the Britpop too much but I can make him listen to Radiohead and stuff.
W: Do you like the new Radiohead album?
DG: There’s so much hype around it…I had to buy it just because I love these huge phenomenons that pop culture creates and [they] were one of my favorite bands. And it isn’t what I expected, but it’s not bad and I like it more every time I listen to it.
W: I feel like when a really good band is really popular, it's okay to get involved with the hype. Like Elliott Smith or Bjork or Radiohead or Beck. It's okay to gush about that because it's rare when somebody so good is actually popular.
DG: It's great. You want to encourage that. I just saw the Bjork movie last night ["Dancer in the Dark"], so you can talk about her all you want.
W: Yeah, we were planning to see it last night. I think we're going to go tonight.
DG: You need to see it. It's the most emotionally difficult and amazing movie that I've ever seen.
W: So how does it feel to be “Big In Japan,” in the words of Tom Waits, while being relatively unknown on a mainstream level in your own country?
DG: It's funny, because you sell as many records in Japan as you do in America when you're big in Japan. It's the same number, but there's so many more people here, I guess. And the fanaticism of the people there, I guess, also seperates it a little bit. Of Montreal and Dressy Bessy just went over there, and they were playing to 1,000 people that were screaming all the lyrics to their songs. And they came back and then they had to play the festival and they were like "this is just gonna suck," you know, after that, nothing's going to be the same again in America, cause people just aren't that fanatical. And I haven't experienced it yet, so I don't know. It almost sounds to me that it's probably better that we don't. It's just crazy; they're making DJ bags over there right now with Kindercore logos on them - really nice, hundred-dollar DJ bags. Who would buy that here? But in Japan they're going to sell thousands of them. It's just so weird to us. I guess until you go there you can't even begin to comprehend what it really is.
W: You probably wouldn’t want to go back, like Scott Walker in England.
DG: Yeah. Of Montreal really didn’t want to come back, I’ll say that much.
W: Why did Kindercore leave NYC and how did it feel to get back to Athens?
DG: Well, New York, we moved there to see what we could do. Just to see what it would be like. We went there and we made the hook-up with Emperor Norton and we met a lot of really great people, and it was really expensive and I lived in a really bad neighborhood. Ryan and I only lived five blocks away from each other, but Ryan lived right by the train and I lived five blocks away from the train. And each block away from the train got progressively more and more uncomfortable. Our neighborhood was pretty bad. And I didn’t like that at all. And I didn’t like paying this exorbitant rent at all. And it was just so difficult to get anywhere and we missed having cars and all that stuff. After a year – Ryan had been there two years and I had been there a little over a year – we decided it was time to get back.
W: And you liked getting back?
DG: It was like coming home. Our rent here is similar to what we paid there but we live in these huge Victorian houses here because everything’s so cheap it’s ridiculous. We have room and I have a studio in my house that I can record in, and we have houses, not shoebox apartments. And all of our friends are here and all the bands are here. I mean, we lost the Essex Green, but they’re here right now actually in the office, which makes everything come together. [Laughs] But, you know, everybody else is pretty much here, except Ashley Park isn’t with us – we haven’t met him yet. But the family is here. It was really like coming home. This is just my hometown. I don’t ever want to leave again, but I’m sure I’ll have to.
W: Well, the sunlight that has made Kindercore flourish seems to be that whole Athens vibe.
DG: Right. And there’s all this great stuff going on. You get to see stuff here that you just don’t get to see anywhere else. Like, Jeff Mangum [of Neutral Milk Hotel] played the other night.
W: Jesus.
DG: He played at a party with only twelve people, and nobody else is ever going to see that.
W: Is it true that they're going to release another album of new material?
DG: I don't know. I know he has new songs, because I, you know….
W: You heard them.
DG: [Laughs] There's new stuff. What's going to happen I don't know.
W: Do you have any sage advice for tiny indie labels starting up?
DG: Just do it for fun. Don’t expect anything. Because we really didn’t, and it worked out. We didn’t know the grand scheme of making money off this or anything. It was just for fun, because we loved music. And if you love music it doesn’t matter if it sells – you can just enjoy it.
W: Where do you think you’ll be by the time KindercoreOneHundred comes out?
DG: God. It’ll probably be next year at the rate we’re going! [Laughs] I’ll probably be right here. We’re almost there, I think. We’re have, think, up to 70 sitting in our office right now.
W: That’s pretty amazing.
DG: Yeah. We have a relentless schedule, and that’s what makes it fun for us. Getting the records out is the ultimate rush.
W: It’s that midwestern Protestant work ethic. You didn’t get the hesher stuff but you got the work ethic.
DG: That’s really funny because…I’m from Milwaukee and [Ryan’s] from Jersey. Both really strong work ethic places, so we work our asses off.
Go to Kindercore.com for more information on all the Kindercore artists and releases.
interview used by permission of Audiogalaxy.com
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